Difference between revisions of "Talk:Korcula Dialect"

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== War against the Croatian language on Wikipedia ==
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'''Link to the actual article (this is a work page) is here: [http://mywikibiz.com/Korcula_Dialect KorculaDialect]'''
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* Rat protiv Hrvatskog jezika na Wikipediji. [http://www.monitor.hr/clanci/srpsko-hrvatski-jezik-ne-postoji/38133/ Link here]
 
 
== Concerns ==
 
== Concerns ==
 
A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the '''Great Soviet Encyclopaedia'''.  
 
A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the '''Great Soviet Encyclopaedia'''.  
 
* William Benton, (publisher of the Encyclopedia Britannica), stated that: ''"about the second edition of the encyclopedia that the encyclopedia had a political bias and claimed that its purpose was a propaganda weapon"''. Sections of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias were also used as a propaganda weapon to show the superiority of Titoism and the Socialist Yugoslavia to other societies and political systems.  
 
* William Benton, (publisher of the Encyclopedia Britannica), stated that: ''"about the second edition of the encyclopedia that the encyclopedia had a political bias and claimed that its purpose was a propaganda weapon"''. Sections of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias were also used as a propaganda weapon to show the superiority of Titoism and the Socialist Yugoslavia to other societies and political systems.  
  
−
The Croatian language was being change by the modern language ''Serbo-Croatian'' (it was created in the 19th century/constructed language). Additionally Slavicization of non Slavic regions/peoples in Yugoslavia was being carried out. These were the government polices of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia. After the second World War (the Communists) were responsible for one of the greatest massacre of unarmed people of all times, in Europe. The regime removed ethnic populations (Germans, Italians & Hungarians) after [[World War Two]]. This information can be sourced from reliable scholars. (please read [[Titoism and Totalitarianism]])
+
The Croatian language has been changed by the modern language ''Serbo-Croatian'' (it was created in the 19th century/a constructed language). Additionally Slavitization of non Slavic regions (people in the new Yugoslavia ) was being carried out. These were the government polices of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia.  
  
−
Information was and still is being presented to the world, a historical perspective of former communist Yugoslavia that was written by a Totalitarian political system.
+
* After the second World War (the Communists) were responsible for one of the greatest massacres of unarmed people of all times in Europe.
 +
* The regime removed ethnic populations (Germans, Italians & Hungarians) after [[World War Two]]. This information can be sourced from reliable scholars. (please read [[Titoism and Totalitarianism]])
 +
 
 +
Information was and still is being presented to the world. An historical perspective of former communist Yugoslavia that was written by a Totalitarian political system.
 
===Croatian language concerns===
 
===Croatian language concerns===
 
*Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise. [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 07:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 
*Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise. [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 07:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
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=== VKokielov ===
 
=== VKokielov ===
  
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{{Cquote|'''Croatian''' is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language <ref>E.C. Hawkesworth, "Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian Linguistic Complex", in the ''Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics'', 2nd edition, 2006.</ref>, using the term invented by the ''Illyrian movement'' to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government.  Notwithstanding this, the name ''Serbo-Croatian'' was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian.  It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb.  But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.
+
{{quote|'''Croatian''' is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language , using the term invented by the ''Illyrian movement'' to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government.  Notwithstanding this, the name ''Serbo-Croatian'' was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian.  It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb.  But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.
  
−
The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex.  The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.<ref>http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/croatia/dictionary/</ref> The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)}}
+
The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex.  The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.UNIQ70ec0aadb4417dbf-ref-00000023-QINU The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)}}
  
 
* I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)  
 
* I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)  
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''by'' ip 83.131.67.175
 
''by'' ip 83.131.67.175
  
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*Pavlović Bernardin, Dubrovnik, 1747.... ''Pripravljanje za dostojno reći svetu misu... u '''harvaski jezik''' pomnjivo i virno privedeno.'' ''Pokripljenje umirućih... u '''harvaski jezik''' popravi i prištampa... za korist naroda Harvaskoga...'' - he translated liturgy books from Latin to Croatian (harvaski). Everyone who understand South Slavic languages can see that this is Ikavian Shtokavian - never spoken by Serbs.
+
*Pavlović Bernardin, Dubrovnik, 1747.... ''Pripravljanje za dostojno reći svetu misu... u '''harvaski jezik''' pomnjivo i virno privedeno.'' ''Pokripljenje umirućih... u '''harvaski jezik''' popravi i prištampa... za korist naroda Harvaskoga...'' - he translated liturgy books from Latin to Croatian (harvaski). Everyone who understands South Slavic languages can see that this is Ikavian Shtokavian - never spoken by Serbs.
 
   
 
   
−
In history Croatian language was called by a few synonyms: harvatski, ilirski, slovinski, dalmatinski. ''Slovinski'' is Ikavian Croatian form of word Slavic.
+
In history, Croatian language was called by a few synonyms: harvatski, ilirski, slovinski, dalmatinski. ''Slovinski'' is Ikavian Croatian form of the word Slavic.
  
 
*Sforza Ponzoni, 1620, "''dalmatinski ali harvacki''” - Dalmatian or Croatian
 
*Sforza Ponzoni, 1620, "''dalmatinski ali harvacki''” - Dalmatian or Croatian
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*Joakim Stulli, Dubrovnik, 1801, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, - word ''''illyrice'''': “''Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski''”. Once again Illyrian is synonym for Croatian.  
 
*Joakim Stulli, Dubrovnik, 1801, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, - word ''''illyrice'''': “''Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski''”. Once again Illyrian is synonym for Croatian.  
  
−
Serbian writers were translating from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century.
+
 
−
*Georgij Mihajlović, 1803. ''Aždaja sedmoglava'':  "s dalmatinskoga jezika na slaveno-serbskij prečistjeno" (translated from Dalmatian to Serbo-Slavic). He didn't mention Vid Došen, a writer of the original book. Here Dalmatian is synonym for Croatian.
+
== Translating from Croatian to Serbian ==
 +
''by'' ip 83.131.67.175
 +
 
 +
Serbian writers were translating from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century:
 +
*Georgij Mihajlovic, 1803. ''Aždaja sedmoglava'':  "S dalmatinskoga jezika na slaveno-serbskij prečistjeno" (translated from Dalmatian to Serbo-Slavic). He didn't mention Vid Došen, a writer of the original book. Here Dalmatian is synonym for Croatian.
  
 
Opposite example:  
 
Opposite example:  
−
*Ivan Ambrozović, 1808: "''Proričje i narečenja, sa '''srbskog jezika''' na '''ilirički''' privedena, nadopunjena i složena''" (...translated from Serbian language to Croatian...)
+
*Ivan Ambrozovic, 1808: "''Proričje i narečenja, sa '''srbskog jezika''' na '''ilirički''' privedena, nadopunjena i složena''" (...translated from Serbian language to Croatian...)
 +
 
 +
*Vuk Karadzic, Narodne srbske pesnarice, Vienna 1815: "''Pesne su ove... jedne štampane po Hercegovačkom dijalektu, a druge po Sremačkom..., da sam sve pečatao Hercegovački (n. p. djevojka, djeca, vidjeti, lećeti, i dr.), onda bi rekli Sremci: pa šta ovaj nama sad nameće Horvatskij jezik''".
 +
 
 +
These songs... some are written in Herzegovinian dialect, the others are in dialect of Srijem...  written all in Herzegovinian (some ijekavian examples), people of Srijem (Serbs who moved to Srijem from Raška at the end of the 17th century) would say: why is he giving us Croatian language?
  
−
*Vuk Karadžić, Narodne srbske pesnarice, Vienna 1815: "''Pesne su ove... jedne štampane po Hercegovačkom dijalektu, a druge po Sremačkom..., da sam sve pečatao Hercegovački (n. p. djevojka, djeca, vidjeti, lećeti, i dr.), onda bi rekli Sremci: pa šta ovaj nama sad nameće Horvatskij jezik''". (These songs... some are written in Herzegovinian dialect, the others are in dialect of Srijem... if I wrote all in Herzegovinian (some ijekavian examples), people of Srijem (Serbs who moved to Srijem from Raška at the end of the 17th century) would say: why is he giving us Croatian language). So even V.K. who produced standard Serbian in the 18th century acknowledged here that he used Croatian language for Serbian standard.
 
 
== Linguistically ==
 
== Linguistically ==
  
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Slovene - Kaj: Kaj delaš?
 
Slovene - Kaj: Kaj delaš?
  
−
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Ča dilaš (delaš)? Ča činiš?
+
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Ča dilaš (delaš)? Ča činiš?   ''Note'': ''''' Ča činiš? (delaš)''''' & '''''Što radiš?''''' are linguistically not compatible.
  
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Što radiš?
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Što radiš?
Line 79: Line 88:
 
Slovene - Kaj: Spim v postelji.
 
Slovene - Kaj: Spim v postelji.
  
−
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Spim u posteji.
+
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Spim u posteji.      ''Note'': ''''' posteji''''' & '''''krevetu''''' are linguistically not compatible.
  
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form)- Što: Spavam u krevetu.
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form)- Što: Spavam u krevetu.
Line 89: Line 98:
 
Slovene - Kaj: Zažgej ogenj.
 
Slovene - Kaj: Zažgej ogenj.
  
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'''Croatian''' - Ča: Užgi oganj.
+
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Užgi oganj. ''Note'': '''''oganj''''' & '''''vatru''''' are linguistically not compatible.
 +
 
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Upali vatru.
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Upali vatru.
  
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Slovene - Kaj: Moja beseda poveda...
 
Slovene - Kaj: Moja beseda poveda...
  
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'''Croatian''' - Ča: Moja besida povida...
+
'''Croatian''' - Ča: Moja besida povida...  ''Note'': '''''besida/povida''''' & '''''riječ/govori''''' are linguistically not compatible.
  
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Moja riječ govori...
 
Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Moja riječ govori...
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::Cro Što: Želim ići.
 
::Cro Što: Želim ići.
 
::Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.
 
::Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.
−
----
+
 
−
{{GKAnt}}
+
Note: A group of modern Croatians and  Serbs share Shtokavian (as far I know). [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 08:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
−
{{GKAdBrite}}
+
[[File:300px-Serbo croatian dialects historical distribution.png|thumb|right|800px|Western '''Balkans Slavic dialects''' (or languages) historical distribution in the 16 century.
−
{{OMGlinks}}
+
Blue is '''Chakavian''' whist green is West Shokavian and pink is East Shokavian. (''Map by Panonian'')]]
−
== References ==
 
−
<references/>
 

Latest revision as of 09:43, 26 May 2015

Link to the actual article (this is a work page) is here: KorculaDialect

Concerns

A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia.

  • William Benton, (publisher of the Encyclopedia Britannica), stated that: "about the second edition of the encyclopedia that the encyclopedia had a political bias and claimed that its purpose was a propaganda weapon". Sections of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias were also used as a propaganda weapon to show the superiority of Titoism and the Socialist Yugoslavia to other societies and political systems.

The Croatian language has been changed by the modern language Serbo-Croatian (it was created in the 19th century/a constructed language). Additionally Slavitization of non Slavic regions (people in the new Yugoslavia ) was being carried out. These were the government polices of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia.

  • After the second World War (the Communists) were responsible for one of the greatest massacres of unarmed people of all times in Europe.
  • The regime removed ethnic populations (Germans, Italians & Hungarians) after World War Two. This information can be sourced from reliable scholars. (please read Titoism and Totalitarianism)

Information was and still is being presented to the world. An historical perspective of former communist Yugoslavia that was written by a Totalitarian political system.

Croatian language concerns

  • Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise. Peter Z. 07:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Note somebody once stated:"Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) is a political term and not a scientific term." This could be possible Peter Z. 15:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

VKokielov

 
“ 		 
Croatian is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language , using the term invented by the Illyrian movement to underscore the grammatical and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government. Notwithstanding this, the name Serbo-Croatian was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian. It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb. But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.

The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex. The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.?UNIQ70ec0aadb4417dbf-ref-00000023-QINU? The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)
 

„
 

  • I like this! Peter Z. 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is interesting history

by ip 83.131.67.175

  • Pavlović Bernardin, Dubrovnik, 1747.... Pripravljanje za dostojno reći svetu misu... u harvaski jezik pomnjivo i virno privedeno. Pokripljenje umirućih... u harvaski jezik popravi i prištampa... za korist naroda Harvaskoga... - he translated liturgy books from Latin to Croatian (harvaski). Everyone who understands South Slavic languages can see that this is Ikavian Shtokavian - never spoken by Serbs.

In history, Croatian language was called by a few synonyms: harvatski, ilirski, slovinski, dalmatinski. Slovinski is Ikavian Croatian form of the word Slavic.

  • Sforza Ponzoni, 1620, "dalmatinski ali harvacki” - Dalmatian or Croatian
  • Stjepan Cosmi (Cosmus), 1688, always translated illyricus as hrvatski (Clero Illyrico — klera harvaskoga; idiomo Illyrico —harvaskoga izgovora).
  • Filip Grabovac, Venice, 1749: "Cvit razgovora naroda iliričkoga ali arvackoga" (Illyrian or croatian people). "U Dalmaciji... se i jezik zva, kakonoti ilirički, pak slovinski, potomtoga arvacki i evo i danas. Tri su imena a jedan je isti jezik." (In Dalmatia... language was called Illyrian, or Slavic, or Croatian, so still is. There are 3 names, but the language is one).
  • Joakim Stulli, Dubrovnik, 1801, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, - word 'illyrice': “Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski”. Once again Illyrian is synonym for Croatian.


Translating from Croatian to Serbian

by ip 83.131.67.175

Serbian writers were translating from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century:

  • Georgij Mihajlovic, 1803. Aždaja sedmoglava: "S dalmatinskoga jezika na slaveno-serbskij prečistjeno" (translated from Dalmatian to Serbo-Slavic). He didn't mention Vid Došen, a writer of the original book. Here Dalmatian is synonym for Croatian.

Opposite example:

  • Ivan Ambrozovic, 1808: "Proričje i narečenja, sa srbskog jezika na ilirički privedena, nadopunjena i složena" (...translated from Serbian language to Croatian...)
  • Vuk Karadzic, Narodne srbske pesnarice, Vienna 1815: "Pesne su ove... jedne štampane po Hercegovačkom dijalektu, a druge po Sremačkom..., da sam sve pečatao Hercegovački (n. p. djevojka, djeca, vidjeti, lećeti, i dr.), onda bi rekli Sremci: pa šta ovaj nama sad nameće Horvatskij jezik".

These songs... some are written in Herzegovinian dialect, the others are in dialect of Srijem... written all in Herzegovinian (some ijekavian examples), people of Srijem (Serbs who moved to Srijem from Raška at the end of the 17th century) would say: why is he giving us Croatian language?

Linguistically

  • English: Where are you going?

Slovene - Kaj: Kam greš?

Croatian - Ča: Di greš? Kamo greš? Note: Kamo & Gdje are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Gdje ideš?

Serbian - Što: Gde ideš?


  • English: I am going to the west.

Slovene - Kaj: Grem proti zahodu.

Croatian - Ča: Gren va zahod.Note: Gren & Idem are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Idem na zapad.

Serbian - Što: Idem na zapad.


  • English: What are you doing?

Slovene - Kaj: Kaj delaš?

Croatian - Ča: Ča dilaš (delaš)? Ča činiš? Note: Ča činiš? (delaš) & Što radiš? are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Što radiš?

Serbian - Što: Šta radiš?


  • English: I'm sleeping in the bed.

Slovene - Kaj: Spim v postelji.

Croatian - Ča: Spim u posteji. Note: posteji & krevetu are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form)- Što: Spavam u krevetu.

Serbian - Što: Spavam u krevetu.


  • English: Light the fire.

Slovene - Kaj: Zažgej ogenj.

Croatian - Ča: Užgi oganj. Note: oganj & vatru are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Upali vatru.

Serbian - Što: Upali vatru.


  • English: My word is saying...

Slovene - Kaj: Moja beseda poveda...

Croatian - Ča: Moja besida povida... Note: besida/povida & riječ/govori are linguistically not compatible.

Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Moja riječ govori...

Serbian - Što: Moja reč govori...

Small example:
English: I want to go.
Cro Ča: Želin pojti.
Cro Što: Želim ići.
Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.

Note: A group of modern Croatians and Serbs share Shtokavian (as far I know). Peter Z. 08:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Western Balkans Slavic dialects (or languages) historical distribution in the 16 century. Blue is Chakavian whist green is West Shokavian and pink is East Shokavian. (Map by Panonian)
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