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| − | <span id="body0"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Jimbo Wales</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><br />This is all nonsense, and anyone who thinks that Kelly is a proper place to get an understanding of my views should reconsider and ask me directly. </div></div><br />Jimmy, I sent you a 12-paragraph e-mail on December 24th, which I have poked you a couple of times about getting your feedback. You responded on Facebook that you hadn't looked at the e-mail (because you're busy with Wikia Search). Understandable. But, when you find the time to come here and write posts -- posts which even say that we should ask you directly about things -- I feel a bit at odds that I have still not received your reply to my e-mail from over a week ago.</span>
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| | + | === Author Information === |
| | + | ;Author: Thekohser |
| | + | ;Registered: 12/28/07 |
| | + | ;Posts: 223 |
| | + | ;Location: Pennsylvania |
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| | + | === Conversation Threads === |
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| − | <span class="edited-wording"></span>
| + | ==== Post 1: Jimbo Wales ==== |
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| + | :''This is all nonsense, and anyone who thinks that Kelly is a proper place to get an understanding of my views should reconsider and ask me directly.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 2: Gregory (Thekohser) ==== |
| | + | :''Jimmy, I sent you a 12-paragraph email on December 24th, which I have poked you a couple of times about getting your feedback. You responded on Facebook that you hadn't looked at the email (because you're busy with Wikia Search). Understandable. But, when you find the time to come here and write posts -- posts which even say that we should ask you directly about things -- I feel a bit at odds that I have still not received your reply to my email from over a week ago.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 3: Kelly Martin ==== |
| | + | :''Also, a little advice on dealing with Jimbo in email: don't send long messages and don't make more than one point in your email. If you make more than one point, Jimbo will respond only to one of them (typically the one that is easiest to respond to) and ignore the others. The only way to have any hope of getting him to address the point you want him to address is to make it the only point discussed in the email. Save all others until later.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 4: Gregory (Thekohser) ==== |
| | + | :''Kelly, that's too funny, because I have already learned that about Jimbo! I had an old boss who would do the same thing. Problem with this last email was that it was in response to Jimbo saying that for me to move forward, I had to understand that back in October 2006, I 'did flatly lie.' Jimbo asked me to explain to him how 'it' was 'not a lie.' Honestly, I couldn't even put my finger on what 'lie' he was talking about, so I decided to recap the entire story of MyWikiBiz and Jimbo Wales, just in case he had developed some alternate history of the facts in his mind. Before I could even put together my email response, Jimbo sent me another email saying he was 'seriously willing to forgive and forget' but that I need to 'own up' to my own 'failings here.' Again, if we could just get these 'failings' nailed down, we'd be in much better shape. That I went a bit cuckoo when he couldn't thoughtfully discuss the WP:COI policy and instead wrote 'Absolutely unacceptable, sorry'? Yeah, I guess that was a 'failing' on my part. That I went a bit cuckoo when he deleted the Arch Coal article, calling it a 'travesty of NPOV,' even though a couple dozen other members of the community thought it was quite fine? Yeah, I guess that was a 'failing' on my part. That I went a bit cuckoo when a then-anonymous administrator of Wikipedia publicly said that I had 'given misleading information to journalists' but wouldn't back that up in public, and at first thought she read about it in The Signpost, but couldn't come up with the cite? Yeah, I guess that was a 'failing' on my part, but we all saw where that line of weak accusations finally ended up. So, anyway, yes -- I've noticed that same thing about Jimbo and email.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 5: JzG ==== |
| | + | :''The answer's in the question. Try something closer to *one* paragraph - preferably a short one. I guess Jimmy gets even more email than I do, and I get between 500 and 1,000 daily.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 6: MPerel ==== |
| | + | :''Meanwhile, just my two cents on the situation bubbling here... I'm surprised and disconcerted to observe the growing crowd of banned people who seem to be some of the best, innovative, creative, strong editors...people with great ideas and much to potentially contribute. Thekohser, for example (and many others), seems like someone WP would want on its team. Something seems amiss that these people are so easily excluded...'' |
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| + | ==== Post 7: Michael David ==== |
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| + | :''The purpose of the Cage Match Forum is to provide a place where two persons can act out and hopefully work out their differences regarding an issue. The title merely states who is involved, to differentiate it from other matches. And neither one has to 'win.' Sometimes matches end in a draw, where the two parties agree to disagree.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 8: Mike Halterman ==== |
| | + | :''I love this area. And if the name 'Cage Match' isn't exactly sunshine and rainbows, then so what? Life isn't about sunshine and rainbows. You deal and you move on.'' |
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| + | ==== Post 9: Swatjester ==== |
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| + | :''Who cares? It's the cage match. At least we have an outlet to flame away and vent to keep it off-wiki.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 10: privatemusings ==== |
| | + | :''I think the cage match was kind of intended as a venting place where people could go if civility deteriorated, but they wished to continue... the forum equivalent of 'taking this outside.' It's necessary for many forums to keep boards functional - but being such nice people, I don't think it's proven necessary here yet.'' |
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| | + | :''I too don't really feel the title of this board actually helps matters much (not that it's particularly getting in the way either, that I can see) - and certainly it would be silly for people to start flinging insults and invective just because they're here..... that's my take, for you morons. (That's a joke.)'' |
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| + | ==== Post 11: Gregory (Thekohser) ==== |
| | + | :''Thank you, Jimmy. Please take your time, if it means that you'll thoughtfully consider everything I have to say, and/or for you to look up relevant diffs that might illuminate how we so noticeably 'broke down' in October 2006. It is a shame, as the new post here suggests. I really think I could have helped Wikipedia immensely, given the proper attribution and supervision that would have come with a more forgiving COI policy. After all, we still have the Reward Board in place on Wikipedia, and there is now $20,000 of Philip Greenspun's money ready to pay illustrators, so the thought of money changing hands for contributions is certainly not opposed by a 'supermajority' on Wikipedia. The rub is whether a paid editor can ever be sufficiently neutral (or managed by the community to be neutral) so that one of the pillars is not toppled. Remember, at the time I launched MyWikiBiz, about 30% of the Fortune 1000 firms were completely absent from Wikipedia. It seems a shame that the thought of $49 to $99 was viewed as an abhorrent barrier to their inclusion in the encyclopedia by an experienced, monitored business writer. Even today, some companies' articles -- even those in the Fortune 200 -- still look pretty clumsy. Someone being paid to just stylistically clean-up these articles would be an improvement to Wikipedia and not violate NPOV, no? Thing is, we never even got to have discussions like this, since block/ban/deny was the solution of the day.'' |
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| | + | ==== Post 12: JzG ==== |
| | + | :''Yes, and all he did was advertise article writing services without clearing with Foundation first, try to make money out of the profile of Wikipedia built on millions of hours of volunteer effort and charitable donations, evade blocks and bans with sockpuppets, attack Jimbo, complain about the Foundation to the Florida state government, threaten to shop the Foundation to the IRS, offer to drop the threats if his editing privileges were restored, create articles on his paying clients using sockpuppets evading a ban, get an administrator to undelete them when they were deleted as speedy deletion category G5 (created by banned editor while banned), launch a 'conflict of interest' harassment meme against two longstanding contributors who were competing with him on the pundit circuit - it's really hard to see, when his offences are so trivial, why we haven't welcomed him back with open arms.'' |
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| + | :''Not that I'm cynical or anything...'' |
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| − | <span id="number224">#224</span> - <span class="date">01/01/08</span> <span class="time">07:50 PM</span>
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| + | ==== Post 13: Gregory (Thekohser) ==== |
| | + | :''They both defamed me before I had even noticed them, and telling the truth about that isn't 'harassment,' so... Lie.'' |
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| − | <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=224#Post224"><img border="0" src="/forums/images/icons/default/book.gif" alt="" /></a>
| + | :''I didn't know one needed to ask permission to taxi paying-fare customers to a public library that has a 'Ride Board' with money being paid for drivers?'' |
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| − | <span id="subject1">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=223&#Post223" target="_new" title="[Re: #223]" alt="[Re: #223]" rel="nofollow"> Martinp23</a>]
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| + | === Author Information === |
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| + | ;Author: Dtobias |
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| + | ;Registered: 01/04/08 |
| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username224">Martinp23</span>
| + | ;Posts: 108 |
| − | <b><span id="menu_control_224"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_224','profile_popup_224');"><span class="modname">Martinp23</span></a> </span></b>
| + | ;Location: Boca Raton, FL, USA |
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| + | ==== Post 14 ==== |
| | + | ;Title: Re: Jimmy Wales vs Kohs |
| | + | ;Reference: [[Mike Halterman]] |
| | + | ;Date: 01/05/08 |
| | + | ;Time: 10:01 AM |
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| − | <br /> | + | ''Jimbo <i>has</i> sent me personal replies to e-mails... Unfortunately, one of them said that I should go away and find a different hobby. (Too bad I'm not a good listener.)'' |
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| + | ---- |
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| − | Registered: 12/30/07 | + | === Author Information === |
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| + | ;Author: JzG |
| − | Posts: 41
| + | ;Registered: 01/01/08 |
| | + | ;Posts: 72 |
| | + | ;Location: UK |
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| + | ==== Post 15 ==== |
| − | Loc: North West UK
| + | ;Title: Re: Jimmy Wales vs Kohs |
| | + | ;Reference: [[Dtobias]] |
| | + | ;Date: 01/09/08 |
| | + | ;Time: 01:03 AM |
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| | + | ''Jimbo <i>has</i> sent me personal replies to e-mails... Unfortunately, one of them said that I should go away and find a different hobby. (Too bad I'm not a good listener.)'' |
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| | + | ''Different from what? Beating dead horses? I'm right with him on that.'' |
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| − | <span id="body1">The above thread was posted by Thekohser in the "Regarding Wikipedia" board under the "Private Correspondance" thread, in reply to a message Jimbo posted earlier.<br /><br />It has been moved here because it's a bit too ad hominem for the main forums.<br /><br />Apologies for the authorship of the post not being clear above.</span>
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| | + | === Author Information === |
| | + | ;Author: Mike Halterman |
| | + | ;Registered: 01/03/08 |
| | + | ;Posts: 110 |
| | + | ;Location: Lutz, FL |
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| | + | ==== Post 16 ==== |
| | + | ;Title: Re: Jimmy Wales vs Kohs |
| | + | ;Reference: [[JzG]] |
| | + | ;Date: 01/09/08 |
| | + | ;Time: 01:48 AM |
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| − | <span class="edited-wording"></span>
| + | ''Come on now, why even go there? This kind of post does not add anything to the discussion except piss off people who read it. Thinking before typing is a virtue.'' |
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| | + | === Author Information === |
| | + | ;Author: Swatjester |
| | + | ;Registered: 01/03/08 |
| | + | ;Posts: 150 |
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| | + | ==== Post 17 ==== |
| | + | ;Title: Re: Jimmy Wales vs Kohs |
| | + | ;Reference: [[Mike Halterman]] |
| | + | ;Date: 01/09/08 |
| | + | ;Time: 02:45 PM |
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| | + | ''Who cares? It's the cage match. At least we have an outlet to flame away and vent to keep it off-wiki.'' |
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| | + | === Author Information === |
| | + | ;Author: Michael David |
| | + | ;Registered: 12/29/07 |
| | + | ;Posts: 181 |
| | + | ;Location: USA |
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| | + | ==== Post 18 ==== |
| | + | ;Title: Re: Jimmy Wales vs Kohs |
| | + | ;Reference: [[Swatjester]] |
| | + | ;Date: 01/09/08 |
| | + | ;Time: 03:27 PM |
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| + | ''Yeah, but so far it's been more like a playpen than a cage. I'm still waiting for someone with the guts to speak from theirs.'' |
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| − | <span id="number225">#225</span> - <span class="date">01/01/08</span> <span class="time">08:02 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject2">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username225">Thekohser</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_225"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_225','profile_popup_225');">Thekohser</a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body2">But Jimbo saying Kelly Martin speaks "nonsense" is okay?<br /><br />Seriously, are we not adult enough to understand that I'm simply asking for Jimbo to reply to an e-mail? I'm not saying he's Hitler or something.</span>
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| − | Beefing up <a href="http://www.mywikibiz.com" target="_blank">MyWikiBiz.com</a> with all my might.
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| − | <span id="number227">#227</span> - <span class="date">01/01/08</span> <span class="time">08:12 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject3">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=225&#Post225" target="_new" title="[Re: #225]" alt="[Re: #225]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username227">Martinp23</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_227"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_227','profile_popup_227');"><span class="modname">Martinp23</span></a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body3">You're correct - what Jimbo said wasn't in any way ok, hence my post there. The only reason I didn't move the post was that some constructive conversation had continued around it by the time I got there.<br /><br />I'm quite determined to be fair to all the users of this site.</span>
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| − | <span id="number233">#233</span> - <span class="date">01/01/08</span> <span class="time">08:50 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject4">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username233">Kelly Martin</span>
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| − | <span id="body4">Jimmy isn't terribly good at replying to email. On the other hand, he does get a freaking buttload of it. It's sad, but there's not much of a way to force the guy to respond to you.<br /><br />When I email Jimbo, I usually make a point to cc someone else within Jimbo's "trusted circle" so that there'll be someone who will poke him for me if he doesn't reply. Unfortunately, with the most recent purge I no longer know who is still inside Jimbo's trust circle -- the people I've used in the past probably aren't inside the trust circle anymore. <br /><br />My last email to Jimbo didn't get a response, but I didn't really expect one anyway.<br /><br />Also, a little advice on dealing with Jimbo in email: don't send long messages and don't make more than one point in your email. If you make more than one point, Jimbo will respond only to one of them (typically the one that is easiest to respond to) and ignore the others. The only way to have any hope of getting him to address the point you want him to address is to make it the <b>only</b> point discussed in the email. Save all others until later. Infuriating, yes, I know, but that's the way the man is.</span>
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| − | <span id="number243">#243</span> - <span class="date">01/01/08</span> <span class="time">10:54 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject5">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span id="body5"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Kelly Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><br />Also, a little advice on dealing with Jimbo in email: don't send long messages and don't make more than one point in your email. If you make more than one point, Jimbo will respond only to one of them (typically the one that is easiest to respond to) and ignore the others. The only way to have any hope of getting him to address the point you want him to address is to make it the <b>only</b> point discussed in the email. Save all others until later. Infuriating, yes, I know, but that's the way the man is. </div></div><br /><br />Kelly, that's too funny, because I have already learned that about Jimbo! I had an old boss who would do the same thing.<br /><br />Problem with this last e-mail was that it was in response to Jimbo saying that for me to move forward, I had to understand that back in October 2006, I "did flatly lie". Jimbo asked me to explain to him how "it" was "not a lie".<br /><br />Honestly, I couldn't even put my finger on what "lie" he was talking about, so I decided to recap the entire story of MyWikiBiz and Jimbo Wales, just in case he had developed some alternate history of the facts in his mind. Before I could even put together my e-mail response, Jimbo sent me another e-mail saying he was "seriously willing to forgive and forget" but that I need to "own up" to my own "failings here".<br /><br />Again, if we could just get these "failings" nailed down, we'd be in much better shape. That I went a bit cuckoo when he couldn't thoughtfully discuss the WP:COI policy and instead wrote "Absolutely unacceptable, sorry"? Yeah, I guess that was a "failing" on my part. That I went a bit cuckoo when he deleted the Arch Coal article, calling it a "travesty of NPOV", even though a couple dozen other members of the community thought it was quite fine? Yeah, I guess that was a "failing" on my part. That I went a bit cuckoo when a then-anonymous administrator of Wikipedia publicly said that I had "given misleading information to journalists " but wouldn't back that up in public, and at first thought she read about it in The Signpost, but couldn't come up with the cite? Yeah, I guess that was a "failing" on my part, but we all saw where that line of weak accusations finally ended up.<br /><br />So, anyway, yes -- I've noticed that same thing about Jimbo and e-mail.</span>
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| − | Beefing up <a href="http://www.mywikibiz.com" target="_blank">MyWikiBiz.com</a> with all my might.
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| − | <span id="number268">#268</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">07:42 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject6">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username268"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_268"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_268','profile_popup_268');"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body6"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Jimbo Wales</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><br />This is all nonsense, and anyone who thinks that Kelly is a proper place to get an understanding of my views should reconsider and ask me directly. </div></div><br />Jimmy, I sent you a 12-paragraph e-mail on December 24th, which I have poked you a couple of times about getting your feedback. You responded on Facebook that you hadn't looked at the e-mail (because you're busy with Wikia Search). Understandable. But, when you find the time to come here and write posts -- posts which even say that we should ask you directly about things -- I feel a bit at odds that I have still not received your reply to my e-mail from over a week ago. </div></div><br /><br />The answer's in the question. Try something closer to *one* paragraph - preferably a short one. I guess Jimmy gets even more email than I do, and I get between 500 and 1,000 daily.</span>
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| − | <span id="number271">#271</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">08:24 AM</span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=268&#Post268" target="_new" title="[Re: #268]" alt="[Re: #268]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username271">Thekohser</span>
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| − | <span id="body7"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer's in the question. Try something closer to *one* paragraph - preferably a short one. I guess Jimmy gets even more email than I do, and I get between 500 and 1,000 daily. </div></div><br />Hard to boil down to a paragraph all the possible rebuttals to being told that you "flatly lied", without any indication given about what, specifically, the accuser considers "the lie".<br /><br />With all the travel Jimmy does, he could print out my e-mail and read it on a plane. Also, more than half of the paragraphs were 1-3 sentences long. It just took me 2.28 minutes to re-read my e-mail to myself, and I'm not a particularly fast reader.</span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=271&#Post271" target="_new" title="[Re: #271]" alt="[Re: #271]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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| − | <span id="body8">Greg, I will try to get to your email soon.<br /><br />Kelly wrote "Unfortunately, with the most recent purge..."<br /><br />What "purge" is that Kelly? I am unaware of anything of the sort in the entire history of Wikipedia much less recently.</span>
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| − | <span id="number273">#273</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">09:09 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject9">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username273">MPerel</span>
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| − | <span id="body9"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Kelly Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimmy isn't terribly good at replying to email. </div></div><br /><br />I'm a relatively unknown editor, not terribly prolific or part of Jimbo's "trusted circle", and I've emailed Jimbo maybe half a dozen times over the last couple of years. I've always been pleasantly surprised to get a reply, usually within minutes. I find him very reachable.<br /><br />Meanwhile, just my two cents on the situation bubbling here... I'm surprised and disconcerted to observe the growing crowd of banned people who seem to be some of the best, innovative, creative, strong editors...people with great ideas and much to potentially contribute. Thekohser for example (and many others) seems like someone WP would want on its team. Something seems amiss that these people are so easily excluded...</span>
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| − | <span id="number274">#274</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">09:30 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject10">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username274">Thekohser</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_274"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_274','profile_popup_274');">Thekohser</a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body10"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Jimbo Wales</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg, I will try to get to your email soon.<br /></div></div><br />Thank you, Jimmy. Please take your time, if it means that you'll thoughtfully consider everything I have to say, and/or for you to look up relevant diffs that might illuminate how we so noticeably "broke down" in October 2006.<br /><br />It is a shame, as the new post here suggests. I really think I could have helped Wikipedia immensely, given the proper attribution and supervision that would have come with a more forgiving COI policy.<br /><br />After all, we still have the Reward Board in place on Wikipedia, and there is now $20,000 of Philip Greenspun's money ready to pay illustrators, so the thought of money changing hands for contributions is certainly not opposed by a "supermajority" on Wikipedia. The rub is whether a paid editor can ever be sufficiently neutral (or managed by the community to be neutral) so that one of the pillars is not toppled. Remember, at the time I launched MyWikiBiz, about 30% of the Fortune 1000 firms were completely absent from Wikipedia. It seems a shame that the thought of $49 to $99 was viewed as an abhorrent barrier to their inclusion in the encyclopedia by an experienced, monitored business writer.<br /><br />Even today, some companies' articles -- even those <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_Oil" target="_blank">in the Fortune 200</a> -- still look pretty clumsy. Someone being paid to just stylistically clean-up these articles would be an improvement to Wikipedia and not violate NPOV, no?<br /><br />Thing is, we never even got to have discussions like this, since block/ban/deny was the solution of the day.</span>
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| − | Beefing up <a href="http://www.mywikibiz.com" target="_blank">MyWikiBiz.com</a> with all my might.
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| − | <span id="number277">#277</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">10:25 AM</span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username277">Michael David</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_277"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_277','profile_popup_277');"><span class="modname">Michael David</span></a> <img src="/forums/images/general/default/mod.gif" alt="Hosts" border="0" /></span></b>
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| − | <span id="body11"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: MPerel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Kelly Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimmy isn't terribly good at replying to email. </div></div><br /><br />Meanwhile, just my two cents on the situation bubbling here... I'm surprised and disconcerted to observe the growing crowd of banned people who seem to be some of the best, innovative, creative, strong editors...people with great ideas and much to potentially contribute. Thekohser for example (and many others) seems like someone WP would want on its team. Something seems amiss that these people are so easily excluded... </div></div><br /><br />Wikipedia doesn't handle persons with a creative temperament very well, much to the Project's loss.<br /><br />Marc</span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username291">Jimbo Wales</span>
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| − | <span id="body12">I am not comfortable with a thread entitled "Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>"... I wonder if the "cage match" threads could be titled with something a bit more collaborative?<br /><br />"Cage Match" implies that someone has to win. Not to sound too sappy but surely a fabulous outcome of a discussion forum like this would be for both parties in a dispute to find joy in the end, and the expectation could be that other parties who want to weigh in should be doing so with a goal of finding mutual ground for the "combatants".<br /><br />I would love help from this community in helping Gregory and I settle our differences, to whatever extent that might be possible, but I am not happy with the idea of this part of the site being somewhere for us to come and flame each other.</span>
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| − | <span id="number295">#295</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">03:25 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="body13"> The purpose of the Cage Match Forum is to provide a place where two persons can act out and hopefully work out their differences regarding an issue. The Title merely states who is involved, to differentiate it from other matches. And neither one has to "win". Sometimes matches end in a draw, where the two parties agree to disagree.<br /><br />Marc Riddell<br />Co-Host</span>
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| − | <span id="number298">#298</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">03:35 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject14">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username298">privatemusings</span>
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| − | <span id="body14">I think the cage match was kind of intended as a venting place where people could go if civility deteriorated, but they wished to continue... the forum equivalent of 'taking this outside'.<br /><br />it's necessary for many forums to keep boards functional - but being such nice people, I don't think it's proven necessary here yet.<br /><br />I too don't really feel the title of this board actually helps matters much (not that it's particularly getting in the way either, that I can see) - and certainly it would be silly for people to start flinging insults and invective just because they're here.....<br /><br />that's my take, for you morons.<br /><br /><br />(that's a joke.)</span>
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| − | PM<br />Arbcom Sanctioned Sockmaster!<br />Indef. Banned from editing BLPs!<br />.....and who knew he was British?!
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| − | <span id="number322">#322</span> - <span class="date">01/02/08</span> <span class="time">09:20 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject15">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username322">Thekohser</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_322"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_322','profile_popup_322');">Thekohser</a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body15"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Jimbo Wales</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would love help from this community in helping Gregory and I settle our differences, to whatever extent that might be possible, but I am not happy with the idea of this part of the site being somewhere for us to come and flame each other. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sure we could settle many differences. We just need to talk it out. I honestly believe up until a week or so ago, we've been operating under two very different perspectives of motive and interpretations of fact. We may never see eye-to-eye, but if we can just get beyond dismissing all divergent views as "trolling" and such, progress is certainly possible.<br /><br />Read my e-mail from December 24th, Jimbo. Then let's go from there.</span>
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| − | <span id="number412">#412</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:58 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject16">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username412"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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| − | <span id="body16"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: MPerel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Meanwhile, just my two cents on the situation bubbling here... I'm surprised and disconcerted to observe the growing crowd of banned people who seem to be some of the best, innovative, creative, strong editors...people with great ideas and much to potentially contribute. Thekohser for example (and many others) seems like someone WP would want on its team. Something seems amiss that these people are so easily excluded... </div></div><br />Yes, and all he did was advertise article writing services without clearing with Foundation first, try to make money out of the profile of Wikipedia built on millions of hours of volunteer effort and charitable donations, evade blocks and bans with sockpuppets, attack Jimbo, complain about the Foundation to the Florida state government, threaten to shop the Foundation to the IRS, offer to drop the threats if his editing privileges were restored, create articles on his paying clients using sockpuppets evading a ban, get an administrator to undelete them when they were deleted as speedy deletion category G5 (created by banned editor while banned), launch a "conflict of interest" harassment meme against two longstanding contributors who were competing with him on the pundit circuit - it's really hard to see, when his offences are so trivial, why we haven't welcomed him back with open arms.<br /><br />Not that I'm cynical or anything...</span>
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| − | <span id="number500">#500</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">08:51 PM</span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=412&#Post412" target="_new" title="[Re: #412]" alt="[Re: #412]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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| − | <span id="body17"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">offer to drop the threats if his editing privileges were restored</div></div><br />Lie.<br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">create articles on his paying clients using sockpuppets evading a ban, get an administrator to undelete them when they were deleted as speedy deletion category G5 (created by banned editor while banned)</div></div><br />Lie.<br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">launch a "conflict of interest" harassment meme against two longstanding contributors who were competing with him on the pundit circuit</div></div><br />They both defamed me before I had even noticed them, and telling the truth about that isn't "harassment", so... Lie. <br /><br />The rest of your stuff, pretty much spot on.<br /><br />I didn't know one needed to ask permission to taxi paying-fare customers to a public library that has a "Ride Board" with money being paid for drivers?</span>
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| − | <span id="number528">#528</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">01:13 AM</span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295&#Post295" target="_new" title="[Re: #295]" alt="[Re: #295]" rel="nofollow"> Michael David</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username528">Mike Halterman</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_528"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_528','profile_popup_528');">Mike Halterman</a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body18">I love this area. And if the name "Cage Match" isn't exactly sunshine and rainbows, then so what? Life isn't about sunshine and rainbows. You deal and you move on.</span>
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| − | <span id="number545">#545</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">10:01 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject19">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=528&#Post528" target="_new" title="[Re: #528]" alt="[Re: #528]" rel="nofollow"> Mike Halterman</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username545">Dtobias</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_545"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_545','profile_popup_545');">Dtobias</a> </span></b>
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| − | <span id="body19">Jimbo <i>has</i> sent me personal replies to e-mails... Unfortunately, one of them said that I should go away and find a different hobby. (Too bad I'm not a good listener.)</span>
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| − | <span id="number894">#894</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">01:03 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject20">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=545&#Post545" target="_new" title="[Re: #545]" alt="[Re: #545]" rel="nofollow"> Dtobias</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username894"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_894"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_894','profile_popup_894');"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a> </span></b>
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| − | Registered: 01/01/08
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| − | <span id="body20"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Dtobias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimbo <i>has</i> sent me personal replies to e-mails... Unfortunately, one of them said that I should go away and find a different hobby. (Too bad I'm not a good listener.) </div></div><br />Different form what? Beating dead horses? I'm right with him on that.</span>
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| − | _________________________<br />
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| − | <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user_talk:JzG" target="_blank"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>
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| − | <span id="number898">#898</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">01:48 AM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject21">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=894&#Post894" target="_new" title="[Re: #894]" alt="[Re: #894]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username898">Mike Halterman</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_898"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_898','profile_popup_898');">Mike Halterman</a> </span></b>
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| − | Registered: 01/03/08
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| − | Posts: 110
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| − | Loc: Lutz, FL
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| − | <span id="body21"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Dtobias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimbo <i>has</i> sent me personal replies to e-mails... Unfortunately, one of them said that I should go away and find a different hobby. (Too bad I'm not a good listener.) </div></div><br />Different form what? Beating dead horses? I'm right with him on that. </div></div><br /><br />Come on now, why even go there? This kind of post does not add anything to the discussion except piss off people who read it. Thinking before typing is a virtue.</span>
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| − | <span id="number927">#927</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">02:45 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject22">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=898&#Post898" target="_new" title="[Re: #898]" alt="[Re: #898]" rel="nofollow"> Mike Halterman</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username927">Swatjester</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_927"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_927','profile_popup_927');">Swatjester</a> </span></b>
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| − | Registered: 01/03/08
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| − | <span id="body22">Who cares? It's the cage match. At least we have an outlet to flame away and vent to keep it off-wiki.</span>
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| − | <span id="number931">#931</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">03:27 PM</span>
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| − | <span id="subject23">Re: Jimmy Wales <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">vs</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b></span>
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| − | [Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=927&#Post927" target="_new" title="[Re: #927]" alt="[Re: #927]" rel="nofollow"> Swatjester</a>]
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| − | <span style="display: none;" id="username931">Michael David</span>
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| − | <b><span id="menu_control_931"><a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="showHideMenu('menu_control_931','profile_popup_931');"><span class="modname">Michael David</span></a> <img src="/forums/images/general/default/mod.gif" alt="Hosts" border="0" /></span></b>
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| − | Registered: 12/29/07
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| − | <span id="body23"> Yeah, but so far it's been more like a playpen than a cage. I'm still waiting for someone with the guts to speak from theirs.<br /><br />Marc<br />C-Host</span>
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