Difference between revisions of "User talk:Proabivouac"

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(Control of libelous commentary)
(→‎"Sam Blacketer": typo, formattin)
 
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== Hi ==
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== "Sam Blacketer" ==
  
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Hi PB. Good to see you around. [[User:Ockham|Peter Damian]] 00:26, 11 October 2008 (PDT)
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I decided to post this on your talk page, since you had linked to information about it on your directory. For the record, David Boothroyd lied to me about his sockpuppetry, when I asked him via his Gmail address if he had any other/previous accounts and why, if so, he was so experienced with formatting from the beginning. He was also evasive about that e-mail address, which had no trace anywhere on the "searchable" internet. I used 3 different search engines and a newsgroup search engine and found nothing using the sam.blacketer (AT) googlemail.com address. I asked him why he did that in my first e-mail to him, and he completely ignored my question. He acknowledged that I mentioned it, but failed to explain his creation and use of that e-mail address.
  
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== Please fix ==
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These are copies of e-mails between me and Boothroyd. The "Original Message" is still there in messages that I received while using Cox, because I forwarded all messages from my Cox account to my AOL account prior to moving and changing ISPs. My new ISP doesn't have an e-mail service. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sam_Blacketer&oldid=284681365#Please_answer_my_question this exchange].
  
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Your "error" in your Google docs dated 6th September 2008:
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<pre><nowiki>
 +
----- Original Message -----
 +
From: Sam Blacketer
 +
To: Jonas Rand
 +
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:45 PM
 +
Subject: Re: Question
  
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[http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd7ss2g_0fshgw6hq British civil servant impersonated others online]
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On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Jonas Rand <joeyyuan@cox.net> wrote:
  
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As exposed in my Google docs dated 25th September 2008 (although originally exposed on 8th September 2008 on Encyc):
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    According to the Arbitrators history chart on the WP:ARBCOM page, you were elected in December
 +
2007. Could you please explain why your first edits under that account were in December 2006, when
 +
you appeared to be quite experienced with Wikipedia or at least its formatting, and suddenly one year
 +
later you are an arbitrator? I also note you have not identified yourself the Wikimedia Foundation,
 +
and uniquely do not have check user permissions. Are you under the age of 18? Arbitrators, as
 +
decision makers on the site, have an ethical obligation to identify themselves at least to the site's
 +
governing body (the WMF), if not publicly. Also of note is the fact that you use a Gmail/Googlemail
 +
account which has no trace anywhere else on the internet, presumably created for specific use on  
 +
Wikipedia, so that it cannot be connected to your identity. What have your previous account names
 +
been, if any?
 +
----
  
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[http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dpqbn5p_0dvbzkzgt Correction to British civil servant impersonated others online]
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None. Jonas, I hope you don't mind but I notice you have a blog which covers wikipedia issues. I'm
 +
happy to tell you a little more about myself but because arbitrators are sometimes subject of
 +
personal harassment and adverse publicity, I would like an undertaking that you won't publish or
 +
disclose anything without my permission.
  
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Please change this paragraph:
 
  
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''For the sockpuppet account known as Poetlister, Mr. Baxter gives the name Giselle Hillman, purportedly a 26-year old statistician from Ilford. Google gives several hits for a Giselle Hillman which match this description, two papers which credit Ms. Hillman with providing data from the National Transportation Survey,[13] and one site which lists Giselle Veronica Hillman among Ilford County High School's class of 2000.[14] The latter was added by Adrian Meredith, known by the screen name Blissyu2, presumably at the Poetlister alias' request.[15]''
+
--
 +
Sam Blacketer
  
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To read this:
+
========
  
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''For the sockpuppet account known as Poetlister, Mr. Baxter was once said to have the real name of Giselle Hillman [12], purportedly a 26-year old statistician from Ilford. Google gives several hits for a Giselle Hillman which match this description, two papers which credit Ms. Hillman with providing data from the National Transportation Survey,[13] and Names Database, a social networking site, which lists Giselle Veronica Hillman among Ilford County High School's class of 2000.[14] [15]''
+
From: Jonas Rand
 +
To: Sam Blacketer
 +
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:02 PM
 +
Subject: Re: Question
  
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As you can see from [http://namesdatabase.com/people/HILLMAN/GISELLE%20VERONICA/20432221 the link that you used], it actually says: "Referred by Adrian Meredith". This is not the same as "Written by Adrian Meredith", which you are saying in your document.  The inference that you make, based on that, that I created the Giselle Hillman identity on Poetlister's request, is therefore false, and should be retracted.  It is a hurtful, nasty, slanderous thing to say which has caused significant damage to me as a person in my real life.  It has also led to a number of seriously hurtful things that were said by other people in relation to that, primarily by Alison and SlimVirgin but also by others, on Wikipedia Review, Encyc,  Wikipedia and other places, which have also caused significant real life damage.
+
I will not disclose anything, however I just found it strange that you did
 +
not identify to the WMF. I do not use the blog anymore, I was contemplating
 +
writing in it again, but I will not say anything about this in there.
  
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Whilst I find it completely unbelievable that you could either be unaware that you had made this "mistake" and furthermore that you are unaware that you have been proven false for over a month, I nonetheless am here, for the first time person to person writing you a comment to ask you to please remove this comment. (Note that I have been, since September 8th, trying to contact you with this regards, but every single effort was blocked by people who tried to challenge my right to speak to you!  Dozens of people have told me that they spoke to you, but perhaps you can explain why you never got the message?)
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Jonas
  
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As you will see, it does not in any way detract from your investigation.  The only difference is that it removes a false aspect that pins the whole thing on me.  In other words, if you make the change as suggested, it actually makes you look better, because it makes you look like less of a liar, and it makes it look like your reason for the investigation was to try to prove guilt, rather than just to try to smear my name, which is what it looks like right now.
+
========
  
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If you will make the change, coupled with a public apology and some kind of an explanation as to why you were misled to believe that I was in fact responsible for creating the Giselle Hillman identity for Poetlister, then I will also similarly say nicer things about you. 
+
----- Original Message -----
 +
From: Sam Blacketer
 +
To: Jonas Rand
 +
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:00 PM
 +
Subject: Re: Question
  
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If you don't agree to make the change, I will of course continue to advertise why your article is false, I will indeed call you a liar, and your whole effort, which, other than that element, was probably a pretty good thing, will ultimately end up looking bad on you.
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I do find it interesting that you think I was "quite experienced with Wikipedia .. formatting" in
 +
December 2006 because that's certainly not how I found it at the time! I started off by just clicking
 +
on 'edit this page' and adding the new information following the same format which the existing
 +
information used. Then someone came in and turned a simple list with bullet points into a nice
 +
looking table and I wanted to do the same so I just copied the format. A little bit of fiddling with
 +
it on the sandbox was needed before I got a working understanding.
  
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This has gone on long enough, and it is high time that you made things right.  
+
Having taken up Wikipedia editing only on finding myself liberated, against my will, from a long-term
 +
relationship, I found it was a very good way of filling a sudden increase in free time and solving a
 +
desire to distract myself. Also it was a good spur to find out about some of the things that I
 +
remembered from when I was younger. Mostly I write articles about the sort of politicians who I
 +
remember seeing in lists of Parliament, or about events which shook the public attention but seemed
 +
to have escaped notice. (I'm still surprised no-one wrote about 'I'm Backing Britain' before me as it
 +
was really big at the time.)
  
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Thank you. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 08:39, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
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Possibly it was a big mistake to use a real name when signing up but fortunately 'Sam' was a
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:I am not aware that you ever "proved anything was wrong"…this is the first time you've ever attempted to speak with me about this.
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childhood nickname which stuck and not my official first name. I also use a personal email which is
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:Put simply, you wish me to delete this sentence:
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separate but I don't think it would show up in a search. When I was elected to the Arbitration
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:“The latter was added by Adrian Meredith, known by the screen name Blissyu2, presumably at the Poetlister alias' request.[15]''
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committee in 2007, much to my own surprise, I didn't want to take the Oversight power offered to all
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:“As you can see from [http://namesdatabase.com/people/HILLMAN/GISELLE%20VERONICA/20432221 the link that you used], it actually says: "Referred by Adrian Meredith".”
+
arbitrators because I couldn't see myself using it. Arbitrators exchange other information and meet
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:Yes, I see that. It’s possible that I’d misinterpreted that information, having never used that site. So, explain to me what actually happened, and we’ll correct the record.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 14:04, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
+
each other so there was no particular concern over verifying I was over 18. I guess the list of
 +
identified users may only list those with the permissions needing verification.
  
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:Blissyu2, you write, "Note that I have been, since September 8th, trying to contact you with this regards, but every single effort was blocked by people who tried to challenge my right to speak to you! Dozens of people have told me that they spoke to you, but perhaps you can explain why you never got the message?)"
+
PS As we're talking in confidence, I thought I ought to tell you that one arbitrator (not me this  
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:Who are these "dozens of people" who told you this? I certainly never heard from them.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 16:53, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
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time) was actually quite impressed with some of your blog posts about wikipedia, seeing them as
 +
mature and reasonable.
  
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::Okay, play dumb then.  Indeed, play really stupid.
+
--
 +
Sam Blacketer
  
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::Names Database is a social networking site.  Classmates.com is a subsidiary of it.  I have never actually used Names Database, I only ever signed up to Classmates.com.  Try it yourself.  When you sign up, it automatically sends an e-mail invitation to everyone on your mailing list from the e-mail address you register with.  Guess what?  I had been talking to Poetlister, so Poetlister got that e-mail.  So, Poetlister is one of about 50 people who are listed as "Referred By Adrian Meredith".  Get it?  Right.  It doesn't mean "Written By".  I suppose that it is hypothetically possible for me to have written it, but again, they check IP and e-mail address to verify who you are.  They don't check anything else, though.  All that you know is that every single entry in that database is using a different IP address and a different e-mail address.  There is no guarantee that the "Adrian Meredith" in there is really me, nor is there any guarantee that the "Giselle Hillman" account really belongs to them.  It is not reliable.  Indeed, nobody who understood what the site was would think that it was reliable.  The aim of the site is to try to find ex school friends.  I found about a dozen people I used to go to high school with who I had lost contact with.  It is a good site.  Thanks to your lying article, I was forced to take my name off that.  I wasn't too impressed about that.  I would love to be able to re-add my name there, but until you fix your lying article, I can't do that.
+
========
 +
</nowiki></pre>
  
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::You were comprehensively proven to have lied your fucking heart out there.  You are still sitting here smiling and refusing to change it.  There you go.  You can lie and pretend that all of the dozens of people who contacted you oh no secretly didn't. You can pretend that you never saw all of the horrible shit that Alison said about me on Encyc, all of the shit that SlimVirgin said about me on Wikipedia, all of the thousands of things that people said about me BECAUSE OF YOUR LIES!  You can lie your heart about that.
+
Note that I did not consider my breach of confidentiality an ethical lapse, as Boothroyd lied to me and I have no reason to keep my word. In addition, he needs to be held accountable, for ''all'' he did, including lying to me.
  
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::If you honestly think that what you are saying is true, prove it.  Put your real name to it, and contact details, so that I can sue you, and we will get a court to decide whether what you are saying is true or not.  What you are doing right now is illegal.  Daniel Brandt talks about it all of the time.  Lying about someone while hiding behind a screen name is illegal by US law. 
+
[[User:Jonas Rand|Jonas Rand]] 07:33, 27 July 2009 (PDT)
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::You have no reason whatsoever to lie about me in that document.  It doesn't help your case - it hurts your case immensely.  It makes it look like you are just making shit up as you go along.  You know that it is wrong, so fix it.  Read up about Captain AmErika if you really are so stupid as to think that you have a right to do this shit.  [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 02:14, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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::::Adrian, what is your evidence and reasoning to support your curious [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Interpersonal_understanding_of_mental_states ''theory of mind''] regarding Proabiv's beliefs, intentions, desires, motivations, or pretensions of knowledge?  In particular, please support your as-yet undemonstrated hypothesis that Proabiv was knowingly and intentionally being deceptive rather than merely confused by an incomplete and inchoate account.  Have you rigorously employed the protocols of the scientific method to falsify your above-stated hypothesis regarding Proabiv's alleged state of mind?  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 05:22, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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:::Whoa, hold on. Just tell me what actually happened with the NamesBase site. That's all I'm asking.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 02:17, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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::: ''"You can pretend that you never saw all of the horrible shit that Alison [..] "'' - Blissyu2, are you still badmouthing me around the place? Knock it off already - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<font color="#FF7C0A">l<font color="#FFB550">is</font>o</font>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 20:44, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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Shut up Alison, you started your shit because of this lie by Proabivouc, who you insisted you had told about my error.  Now you are saying that *I* am making up shit about you?  Give me strength!  The only reason you stopped was because you were scared of the CIA.  Proabivouac has now proven that he is guilty of deliberately lying to cause a smear campaign.  You, Alison, are an accessory to the crime.  Please can both of you give me your contact details, and if you are so fucking sure of yourselves, then bring it to a court of law.  Hiding behind an online alias while lying about a real person is a crime. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 01:06, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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::Adrian, what is your evidence and reasoning to support your curious [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Interpersonal_understanding_of_mental_states ''theory of mind''] regarding Alison's fears, motivations or pretensions of knowledge? Have you rigorously employed the protocols of the scientific method to falsify your above-stated hypotheses regarding Alison's alleged states of mind?  —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 05:36, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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:Blissyu2, again, please just explain what happened at the NamesBase site, so I can correct the record accordingly.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 01:09, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
−
 
 
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::Go to http://www.classmates.com/ and sign up.  It says to you "Send invites to all of your friends".  It even does it automatically out of your address book.  Simple.  It sends it to all of the people in your address book.  I was talking to Poetlister at the time because I was investigating her case, which you well know, hence she got invited.  I had no idea that Poetlister had created a profile until you said so a while ago.  That was also when I discovered that Names Database now controls Classmates.com.  There are about 30 people whose accounts say "Referred By Adrian Meredith".  I did not create any of them.  If you read their rules, you would have seen that it is impossible to create 2 profiles, because they require you to use a unique IP address and a unique e-mail address.  It is however possible to create a fake profile, just so long as you don't have another one.  Why do you presume that I would go to so much effort to create a fake profile?  If I went to so much effort as that (which would be a huge amount of effort), why would I then show my hand by having it Referred By me?  And furthermore, if going to so much effort, why not advertise it?  I mean, before you found that spot, nobody had even seen that ever before.  It doesn't show up on Google under any search, and if you look through Names Database you get a Canadian Giselle Hillman, who wasn't referred by anyone. 
 
−
 
 
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:::Sorry, but I am not buying it that you can't figure out something that freaking obvious. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 01:12, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
−
 
 
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:::::For what it's worth, I'm having trouble just understanding the ''puzzle'' to be solved.  It's possible the solution to the puzzle (once clearly stated) is obvious, but the puzzle itself is not sufficiently well stated at this juncture to be clear to me. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 05:36, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
−
 
 
−
::::Okay, so you invited "Poetlister" to join. Are you saying that this happened automatically when you hit a button saying "send invites to all of your friends"? Are you saying that you had no idea that "Poetlister" would then create a profile after you'd invited "her" to do join?[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 01:56, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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== Are you still banned from WR? ==
 
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What was that all about? [[User:Emperor|Emperor]] 18:28, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
 
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== Control of libelous commentary ==
 
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Tim, I realize your burning desire to attach real names to pseudonymous screen names, and it's a pursuit that I can endorse, but if you are going to do so on MyWikiBiz, you have to do so without unsubstantiated epithets that cannot be interpreted as anything but defamatory.  -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 18:37, 26 October 2008 (PDT)
 

Latest revision as of 14:39, 27 July 2009

"Sam Blacketer"

I decided to post this on your talk page, since you had linked to information about it on your directory. For the record, David Boothroyd lied to me about his sockpuppetry, when I asked him via his Gmail address if he had any other/previous accounts and why, if so, he was so experienced with formatting from the beginning. He was also evasive about that e-mail address, which had no trace anywhere on the "searchable" internet. I used 3 different search engines and a newsgroup search engine and found nothing using the sam.blacketer (AT) googlemail.com address. I asked him why he did that in my first e-mail to him, and he completely ignored my question. He acknowledged that I mentioned it, but failed to explain his creation and use of that e-mail address.

These are copies of e-mails between me and Boothroyd. The "Original Message" is still there in messages that I received while using Cox, because I forwarded all messages from my Cox account to my AOL account prior to moving and changing ISPs. My new ISP doesn't have an e-mail service. See also this exchange. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Blacketer
To: Jonas Rand
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Question

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Jonas Rand <joeyyuan@cox.net> wrote:

    According to the Arbitrators history chart on the WP:ARBCOM page, you were elected in December 
2007. Could you please explain why your first edits under that account were in December 2006, when 
you appeared to be quite experienced with Wikipedia or at least its formatting, and suddenly one year 
later you are an arbitrator? I also note you have not identified yourself the Wikimedia Foundation, 
and uniquely do not have check user permissions. Are you under the age of 18? Arbitrators, as 
decision makers on the site, have an ethical obligation to identify themselves at least to the site's 
governing body (the WMF), if not publicly. Also of note is the fact that you use a Gmail/Googlemail 
account which has no trace anywhere else on the internet, presumably created for specific use on 
Wikipedia, so that it cannot be connected to your identity. What have your previous account names 
been, if any?
----

None. Jonas, I hope you don't mind but I notice you have a blog which covers wikipedia issues. I'm 
happy to tell you a little more about myself but because arbitrators are sometimes subject of 
personal harassment and adverse publicity, I would like an undertaking that you won't publish or 
disclose anything without my permission.


-- 
Sam Blacketer

========

From: Jonas Rand
To: Sam Blacketer
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Question

I will not disclose anything, however I just found it strange that you did 
not identify to the WMF. I do not use the blog anymore, I was contemplating 
writing in it again, but I will not say anything about this in there.

Jonas

========

----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Blacketer
To: Jonas Rand
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Question

I do find it interesting that you think I was "quite experienced with Wikipedia .. formatting" in 
December 2006 because that's certainly not how I found it at the time! I started off by just clicking
 on 'edit this page' and adding the new information following the same format which the existing 
information used. Then someone came in and turned a simple list with bullet points into a nice 
looking table and I wanted to do the same so I just copied the format. A little bit of fiddling with 
it on the sandbox was needed before I got a working understanding.

Having taken up Wikipedia editing only on finding myself liberated, against my will, from a long-term 
relationship, I found it was a very good way of filling a sudden increase in free time and solving a 
desire to distract myself. Also it was a good spur to find out about some of the things that I 
remembered from when I was younger. Mostly I write articles about the sort of politicians who I 
remember seeing in lists of Parliament, or about events which shook the public attention but seemed 
to have escaped notice. (I'm still surprised no-one wrote about 'I'm Backing Britain' before me as it
was really big at the time.)

Possibly it was a big mistake to use a real name when signing up but fortunately 'Sam' was a 
childhood nickname which stuck and not my official first name. I also use a personal email which is 
separate but I don't think it would show up in a search. When I was elected to the Arbitration 
committee in 2007, much to my own surprise, I didn't want to take the Oversight power offered to all 
arbitrators because I couldn't see myself using it. Arbitrators exchange other information and meet 
each other so there was no particular concern over verifying I was over 18. I guess the list of 
identified users may only list those with the permissions needing verification.

PS As we're talking in confidence, I thought I ought to tell you that one arbitrator (not me this 
time) was actually quite impressed with some of your blog posts about wikipedia, seeing them as 
mature and reasonable.

-- 
Sam Blacketer

========

Note that I did not consider my breach of confidentiality an ethical lapse, as Boothroyd lied to me and I have no reason to keep my word. In addition, he needs to be held accountable, for all he did, including lying to me.

Jonas Rand 07:33, 27 July 2009 (PDT)

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