Talk:Croatian Identity

Croatia (Hrvatska)

• Croatian Identity - Page Link

Work page

Sources

• The Early Medieval Balkans: by John Van Antwerp Fine (p248)
• When Ethnicity did not Matter in the Balkans by John Van Antwerp Fine (p39, p172)
• Becoming Slav, Becoming Croat: by Danijel Dzino (p25, p185, p202, p217)
• Religious Separation and Political Intolerance in Bosnia-Herzegovina by Mitja Velikonja (p41)
• Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500-1250 by Florin Curta (p140):

"The reason for the pope's sharing such concerns with a Croatian prince is that Bulgaria apparently bordered Croatia ... Branimir (879–892) appears in no less than five Latin inscriptions. One of them was found in Nin and calls Branimir..."

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Note to self:

• The source "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" is saying that "Branimir Earl Duke Cruatorum thought" which he is referred to as a leader of a people, tribe, individuals, etc. (dux=DUKE, CHIEFTAIN, LEADER etc.). This being Cruatorum (Cruatorum=people, tribe, individuals, military units or even political elite).

• Imaginary history (written text, assortment of paintings, fake Croatian identities i.e Marco Polo)
• Language issues (using a Herzegovina Slavic Language for creating a standard constructed language i.e Serbo-Croatian for a super SLAVIC state 19 century style & then imposing it on others and ignoring their mother tongue !!!).

(What's in a Name: The Case of Serbo-Croatian by R Bugarski - 2004 link)

Guduscani, a Vandals, Goths tribe on the western part of Ducatus Croatiae .

Note to self: There is a major difference between...

• raids
• settlement
• mass migrations

Note to self:

• Roman Latin-Illyrian population (Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13 000-20 000 years ago.) plus Celts, Liburnians,Greeks
• The Ostrogoths (a Germanic tribe related to the Goths)
• Slavs (intermixed with Sarmatians)
• Within the Kingdom of Croatian (925–1102AD) all of her citizens weren't ethnic Croatian Slavs.

Rough Time line:

• Carolingian Empire (Franks) - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Borna a Guduscani (a Germanic tribe related to the Goths)
• Carolingian Empire (Franks) - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Vladislav a Slav.
• Carolingian Empire (Franks) - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Mislav a Slav. He ruled from Klis in central Dalmatia, when he made Klis Fortress seat to his throne.
• Carolingian Empire (Franks) - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Trpimir I (the founder of the Slavic House of Trpimirovic). Then Zdeslav (864,878–879) • Domagoj (864–876) • Iljko (876–878)
• Ducatus Chroatorum- Leader Duke Branimir (dux sclavorum & dux cruatorum)

The Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by a Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland

A group of Slavic tribes settled in the Dalmatian Hinterland (Roman Dalmatia). Their leader from the 880's was referred to as (in Latin): "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" thus indicating a Slavic connection with the Sarmatian tribes. Ducatus Croatiae was created in the late 9th century which evolved from Dalmatian ducatus which at the time was part of the Carolingian Empire (Franks). Later it became a kingdom which was called the Kingdom of Croatia (925–1102 AD).

The new Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland with an historic connection with Sarmatian tribes who referred to themselves as Hrvati or in English Croatians. According to the Baska tablet (1100 AD) they spoke old Slavic Chakavian. The Kingdom of Croatian was named after her ruling class, which in turn ruled a medieval multi-ethnic state.

The centre of political power of the Croatian Slavs shifted during the Ottoman invasions. The shift was from the Dalmatian hinterland to to-days city of Zagreb. The term Croat became fully established as a constructed Identity in the 19th and 20th century.

Language:

Old Slavic Chakavian should be seen as a language in its own right, not a dialect. In the 19 century a fundamental mistake was made when political extremist ideology influenced culture and political decision making. It was an attempt at imitating Western imperial empire building egotism which failed with truly tragic historic events being the result. In 1850, a small group of Croatians (Illyrian movment) and Serbian representatives signed the "Vienna agreement". This agreement was indeed the basis and the start of the regions problems.

• LANGUAGE AND NATION: AN ANALYSIS OF CROATIAN LINGUISTIC NATIONALISM - A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of San Diego State

“

Robert Greenberg, the foremost English-language scholar on South Slav languages, believes the root of the language polemic lies in the Vienna agreement of 1850, which “reversed several centuries of natural Abstand developments for the languages of Orthodox Southern Slavs and Catholic Southern Slavs.” (Greenberg 2004, 23) Croatians and Serbians came to the negotiating table with differing experiences. Serbian linguists were standardizing a single dialect of rural speech and breaking with the archaic Slaveno-Serbian heritage of the eighteenth century “Serbian enlightenment.” Early Croat nationalists proposed a standard language based on a widely spoken dialect linked with the literature of the Croatian Renaissance. With an eye towards South Slav unity they also encouraged liberal borrowing from various dialects (Greenberg 2004, 24-26). This basic difference in approach created conflicts throughout the history of the South Slav movement and the Yugoslav state (Greenberg 2004, 48).

”

• Baska tablet (1100 AD)

“

AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA AZ' OPAT' DR'ŽIHA PISAH SE O LEDINE JuŽE DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V' DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu I SVEDO - MI ŽUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) - CE PRB'NEBŽA S' POSL' VIN(0)DOLE JaK(O)V' V O- TOCE DA IŽE TO POREČE KL'NI I BO(G) I *BÏ* AP(OSTO)LA I *G* E - VANJELISTI I S(VE)TAJa LUCIJa AM(E)N' DA IŽE SDE ŽIVE - T' MOLI ZA NE BOGA AZ OPAT' DBROVIT' Z' - DAH' CREK'V' SIJu I SVOEJu BRATIJu S DEV - ETIJu V' DNI K'NEZA KOS'M'TA OBLAD - AJuĆAGO V'SU K'RAINU I BJeŠE V' T' DNI M - IKULA V' OTOČ'CI S' SVETUJu LUCIJu V' EDINO

”

• http://www.croatianhistory.net/glagoljica/baska.mp3

Old Croatian (Chakavian with elements of liturgical Church Slavonic), translated in 1875: "I, in the name of Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, I abbot Drzhiha, wrote this about the plot of land which was given by Zvonimir, the Croatian King, in his days to St. Lucy and witnesses [are]: Desimir, Prefect of Krbava, Martin in Lika, Pribinezha, clerk in Vinodol, Jacob on the island. If anyone denies it, let him be cursed by 12 Apostles and 4 evangelists and St. Lucy. Let anyone who lives here prays God for them. I abbot Dobrovit built this church with my nine brethren at the time of Prince Kosmat who ruled the whole Country. In those days Mikula was in Otochac with St. Lucy together."

• Valun tablet (11th century)
• Plomin tablet

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Danijel Dzino:

• "In addition, pope Gregory the Great mentioned the 'Slav' raid of Istria in a worried letter to Maximus the" this is regarding Slavic raids north of Dalmatia in 600AD. May be the first mention of Slavs arriving in Roman Dalmatian but as Danijel Dzino states it does not have to mean "mass migrations". Becoming Slav, Becoming Croat: Identity Transformations in ... Page 88

John Van Antwerp Fine:

• "In 879, under him, Dalmatian Croatia, now free of Frankish suzerainty, received papal recognition as a state. ... 864), ruled until about 910, when he was apparently succeeded by Tomislav, probably his son." The early medieval Balkans by John Van Antwerp Fine Page 260

• Wikipedia - Slavs
• Wikipedia - Sarmatians
• "Pope Gregory's ad 600 letter to the bishop of Salona to commiserate about raids, Salona" (raids by Slavic tribes) taken from: Croatia By James Stewart (p9)
• "BRANIMIRO COMITE DUX CRUATORUM COGITAVIT" (c. 880 AD) taken from A history of the Croatian language: toward a common standard by Milan Mogus

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This is interesting: www.hic.hr: Latin as a literary language among the Croats (up till 1848), Vecernji.hr: Preživjeli ledeno doba: Hrvati su prastanovnici Europe (Vecernji.hr: Surviving an ice age: the Croats are descendants of prehistoric Europe)

• More than three quarters of today's Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13000-20000 years ago. They survived the last ice age within certain regions on Europe.

The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870): "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." (Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)

Translation

(Croatian)

Hrvatski Identitet

Prvi primarni izvor, činjenično, da spomene hrvatski identitet na Balkanu je bio Knez Branimir (latinski: "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" cia. 880 AD). Knez Branimir je Slaven iz Dalmacije. Skupina slavenskih plemena naselili u Dalmatinskoj zagori (Rimske Dalmacije). Ducatus Croatiae je nastao u kasnom 9. stoljeću koja se razvila iz dalmatinske Ducatus koje je u to vrijeme bio dio Karolinška Carstvo-Franci. Kasnije postaje kraljevstvo koja se zvala Kraljevina Hrvatska (925-1102 AD)

Kraljevina Hrvatska (Regnum Chroatorum) vladali su slavenske plemstva iz Dalmatinske zagore. Kraljevstvo ime je bazirano na vladajuće klase, koje je pak vladala srednjovjekovnom multi-etničke državu. Pojam slavenskog je prvi put korišten od strane Bizanta, Istočno Rimsko Carstvo (npr. Prokopije-bizantski učenjak, Jordanes-6. stoljeća rimski birokrata), a zabilježen je u 6. stoljeću (cia. 550) grčki (Σκλαβῖνοι-Sklabenoi). Kasnije na latinskom jeziku je napisan Sclaveni.

Hrvat ili Horoúathos su imena sarmat podrijetla. U 1853 Ruska arheolog Pavel Mihajlovič Leontjev otkrio Tanais tablete.Tanais tablete spomenuti tri čovjeka: Horoúathos, Horoáthos i Horóathos (Χορούαθ [ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Oni su pisani na grčkom i iz 3. stoljeća poslije Krista iz grada Tanaisa, današnjeg Azovskog, Rusiji. U to vrijeme područje imao mješoviti Grčki-Sarmat stanovništva.

Iz gore navedene informacije može se zaključiti da se radi o kontaktu između slavenskih i sarmat plemena iz kasne antike. Iz moderne perspektive Sarmat povijesni trag više ne postoji. Svi tragovi tih ljudi su nestali, osim slavenske riječi ili imena Hrvat. Radoslav Katičić hrvatski jezikoslovac (i klasični filolog, indo-Europeanist, slavist i Indologist) rekao je da imena iz Tanaisa Tablet su osobne i ne nacionalne. Nadalje, također može se reći da su ti nazivi se ne odnose na etničkog identiteta. Povijesno izraz Hrvat se potpuno afirmira kao konstruiran identitet u 19. stoljeću.

Nedavna DNK istraživanja

Također je vrlo zanimljivo imati na umu da nedavne DNK znastvena studija navode da više od tri četvrtine današnjeg hrvatskog muškaraca su potomci Europljana koji su naseljavali Europu 13 000-20 000 godina. Iz perspektive DNK studije, narodi koji su živjeli u rimskoj Dalmaciji (prije dolaska Slavena) su genetski dominantna. Narodi koji su živjeli u rimskoj Dalmaciji u tom razdoblju pretežno su bili ilirsko-rimskog Latinski stanovništva.

Principality of Littoral Croatia

The Principality of Littoral Croatia is a truly poorly written article (& there are many more) on Wikipedia. Written in the style of Nationalistic, Extremists - Wikipedians. Falsehoods, propaganda etc. No modern Archaeological and Scholarly research there. Falsehoods are dangerous!

• Nationalistic Editing, Extremists on Wikipedia

Wikipedia: "Littoral Croatia (Croatian: Primorska Hrvatska) or Dalmatian Croatia (Croatian: Dalmatinska Hrvatska) is a name for a region of what used to be a medieval Croatian principality which was established in the former Roman province of Dalmatia." False

Reality: Parts of the Roman province of Dalmatia became part of the Carolingian Empire which was called - Dalmatian Ducatus.

The province of the Roman Empire named Dalmatia was divided after the collapse of the Roman Empire between the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) and the Carolingian Empire. The Carolingian Empire created it’s own Dalmatian Ducatus. The Dalmatian Ducatus (Duchy) of the Carolingian Empire had mainly a Roman Latin-Illyrian population (as well as Liburnians, Greeks, Guduscani, Ostrogoths and Slavs).

With time one of the Slavic tribes within Dalmatian Ducatus became the political elite and the leaders (dux) of the province. From the late 9th century onwards they were referred to as Cruatorum. This was the first time that the Croatian identity (Hrvat) was used c. 880 AD. Cruatorum is a Latin translation of Hrvat. During this period the Dalmatian Ducatus became independent and was renamed Ducatus Croatiae. Later it became a kingdom that was called the Regnum Chroatorum (Kingdom of Croatia 925–1102 AD).

The new Kingdom of Croatia was ruled by Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland (Klis in central Dalmatia). The kingdom was named after her ruling class, which in turn ruled a medieval multi-ethnic state. The Kingdom of Croatia’s political elite seemed to be Slavs who in the past intermixed with Sarmatians as the word Hrvat is of Sarmatian origins. Other than that one can only engage in historical speculation about the connections with the Sarmatians, which many have done in the past.

The Kingdom of Croatia with time became a powerful military state and expanded her borders, as well as being a Christian state then later Catholic (note: the Slavs were pagans upon arrival in Roman Dalmatia). It’s written Language was Latin and Croatian Glagolitic. The Slavic part of the population spoke old Slavic Chakavian.

The medieval state borders have been a matter of huge debate and will remain so until new historical evidence is found. However there is some factual information. The river Cetina was a major border in the south. The Roman cities of Jadera (Zara/Zadar), Spalatum (Spalato/Split), Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and Trau (Trogir) with their surrounding areas never became part of the state. Other parts of the Dalmation coast did. In the north the river Sava was a major border. The region south of the river Cetina has been sometimes referred to as Red Croatia, which would indicate her political influence was felt beyond the river Cetina.

In the late 12 century the state fell into crisis when the neighbouring Hungarians (Magyars) used this opportunity to expand their own state. In 1102 it ceased to exist and it became politically part of Hungary.

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