Help:Water Cooler (proposals)

Water Cooler

---

Water Cooler Proposals   post
The proposals section of the water cooler is used to discuss new ideas and proposals that are not policy related (see Centiare:Water Cooler (policy) for that).
Please sign and date your post (by typing ~~~~ or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar). Please add new topics to the bottom of this page.

Extensions Wanted

General

It sure would be nice to know if Centiare could accomodate the following extensions, which would be amazingly useful for the right kinds of Centiare users:

• The Google Analytics embedder, so users could keep track of traffic statistics to their favorite articles. I'm curious if multiple users can code the same article, and also how

Bold textit "appears" on the page (if at all).

• The YouTube video embedder. Video would really make Centiare pop. (Don't know if this kills the server space, or not, though.)

These are two that my sister and I thought would be really interesting to offer, but I'm sure there are a half-dozen more that would be just as neat. --MyWikiBiz 15:20, 10 December 2006 (PST)

These types of simple extensions are very easy to add. Go ahead and put together a list of others that you would like to see. As for the two above, youTube is ok, but analytics doesn't appear to be working - you can check the author's own site as well. Do you have an example where it's working? Centiare 07:38, 11 December 2006 (PST)

No, I don't have any example of the Google Analytics for MediaWiki working anywhere. Just saw it on their list, and went ga-ga, thinking of the opportunity of its use. It looks like this post suggests that you'd have to add it to one of the MediaWiki "skins" to get it to work, but presumably, only within that skin. --MyWikiBiz 08:13, 11 December 2006 (PST)

That's a modification to the core extension that requires a hack to the underlying MediaWiki code. You never, ever want to do that. Well, maybe in extreme circumstances where one knows exactly what's happening and controls the output. I've done a few to suit very specific purposes, but they're tested extensively and well documented. You definitely don't want to do something like that for some generic hook extension.

I'm going to go ahead and remove the extension+call. If you see it working anywhere, we can go ahead an add it at a later date. In the future, we should probably verify an extension is working before adding to a wish list or installing it (my fault - I assumed you had been using it.) Centiare 08:33, 11 December 2006 (PST)

wikEd

Here is the Wiki editor (newer version) that I had installed in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cacycle/wikEd

Just installed in Centiare and it seems to work as is. Great for wiki lists and tables. Also strips html code.

Wondering if this could be customized to add the script (function)

To create: [[Directory:Subject|Subject]]

when Subject is highlighted. --OmniMediaGroup 06:16, 22 December 2006 (PST)

I just added both User:Centiare/monobook.js and User:Centiare/wikEd.js and it seems to work nicely - I'm seeing all sorts of interesting edit features as I type this comment. Why don't you go ahead and include wikEd.js to your User page and let me know if it works for you as well

PS I followed the same procedures trying to get navpop to work, but a quick Google search revealed that no one outside of MWF controlled servers (projects) appeared to be able to get it to work. (It works fine for me at WP when signed in under my account.) Centiare 07:17, 22 December 2006 (PST).

I went ahead and loaded wikEd.js for both of you - hope you don't mind. Let me know if it looks like it's working ok. Centiare 08:41, 22 December 2006 (PST)

DOH! Now I get what you want. Let me look into it - if it can't be configured via monobook.js, then it would require a hack to the underlying wikEd.js. (Which, incidentally, I went back and removed since it's being externally served for now.) Centiare 10:18, 22 December 2006 (PST)

Maps

Speaking of extensions, which Google maps did you want to include to pinpoint your address from lat/long? The Yahoo map link from MWB looks like it's correctly identifying your address. (The Yahoo map ID is '4', whereas Google is just reading the coords - can you find their option code?) Btw, your pop-up ad appears to interfering with the page rendering. Centiare 08:08, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Google Zoom Level is discussed as a "trial and error" right here. Was your question meant to say, which (of Map, Satellite, or Hybrid) form of Google Maps did I want to include? Actually, what do you mean "include" -- as in, an actual map rendering in the Infobox? I don't know if we need to go there yet. --MyWikiBiz 08:26, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Any of them. The link to the Yahoo map shows your location. Of course, we can get the same thing from Google from your address, but that sort of defeats the purpose of the coordinates. As to placement, we can provide links or we can embed (like the youTube extension). Centiare 08:37, 11 December 2006 (PST)

Citation templates

I would like to see Karl enable the 10 citation templates that are found at Wikipedia. I believe that these 10 should cover any attempt any user should have to factually cite and article or Directory page. I currently updated Directory:Gregory J. Kohs with a {{cite news}}, but it isn't rendering. --MyWikiBiz 10:08, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Done. Please see Centiare:Citation_templates - let me know if there's anything else you need. Centiare 11:32, 2 January 2007 (PST)

Gadgets and Widget

Is anyone aware of any MediaWiki extensions to display Google Gadgets or Widgets?

Here is a Gadget example at wikidot.com

Here is a Widget example at wikidot.com --OmniMediaGroup 09:28, 6 February 2007 (PST)

You mean like these? Snerfling 13:30, 6 February 2007 (PST)

Fundamental Questions/Anecdotes/Critiques

I like this whole centaire thing. The general idea is solid. The businesses, personal pages, and places (BPP) to some extent are all tailor made for "the free directory" I personally believe in the hive mentality to an extent but realize serious restrictions need to be placed so the hive doesn't implode.

Businesses, Personal pages & Places

• Everything besides BPP is found on wikipedia with a 5 year headstart and tens of millions of edits. I think a good policy for non-BPP is a brief two/three paragraph summary lifted from the opening section of a wikipedia article and cleaned up/sourced. (i.e. I am a boxer, In the future there will hopefully be thousands of other boxers, there should be a central page).

Nothing at Wikipedia can be used as a citation reference (at any level), nor can contributions be monetized (other than embedded Amazon links within referenced article citations) by the copyright holder(s). That means there are significant incentives for contributors to re-purpose content in order to enjoy the benefits of their work. Our objective is to allow users to Protect & Promote their intellectual property.

You are absolutely correct about personal interests. As I indicated regarding surfing, anyone tagging an activity/subject as a personal interest can be queried from the subject article; boxing would be no different. However, since Main space articles must adhere to NPOV (which means no link spam, etc), there is little incentive for authors to contribute. The real play is to develop content within protected directory/user space - this is where virtual communities can be created. Snerfling 12:33, 1 February 2007 (PST)

Then why not scrap all but the essentials? Have an article on Poker because people will have that as a common interest but Chip Tricks - c'mon that is completely superfluous and ripped from a completely superfluous wiki page. No one can own "chip tricks" or "delaware" or "what have you" creating a fundamental conflict with centiare's purpose. However, Paramount Vantage or Craig Brewster the director could easily own "black snake moan" the new sam jackson flick even though it's obscure and trivial. Garrett 17:33, 2 February 2007 (PST)

While we don't want to control what people include in the Main space, we do want to limit the edit wars, link spam, etc. that results from attempting to shoehorn NPOV. (Like your recent experience at WP regarding the story on Greg & Centiare. LOL) Ultimately, we want the market to decide. That is, if someone wants to market intellectual property, would they create a main space article on Chip Tricks or Magic? I think people will learn - the market is a wonderful disciplinarian. Snerfling 17:59, 2 February 2007 (PST)

Copyright

• Can you legally display copyrighted images without a fair use tag?

Copyrighted content needs to be controlled by the copyright holder.

Web 3.0

• this site promotes the POV so here I go. You're business model is flawed. The Ads on centiare weaken the overall feel immensely putting the site dangerously close to a geocite/xanga. Instead, go on attack of the show a few more times, get interviewed my a magazine. Once a base of 50,000 (just throwing out a number) members join charge 4.99 for a personal page and 19.99 for a business. You're selling this site, make it cool to have a page. Ipods are no better than roxio players but which one is cool? Exactly. Down the road I see Centiare:The free Directory

Monthly billings are so Web1.0 - think Web3.0. That means transactions.

Transactions, intriging. I found a guy much smarter than me expounding this on a blog.

“I have a dream for the Web [in which computers] become capable of analyzing all the data on the Web – the content, links, and transactions between people and computers. A ‘Semantic Web’, which should make this possible, has yet to emerge, but when it does, the day-to-day mechanisms of trade, bureaucracy and our daily lives will be handled by machines talking to machines. The ‘intelligent agents’ people have touted for ages will finally materialize.” - Tim Berners-Lee (Sounds good)

TBL is spoken of in hushed tones of reverence around here. We're betting the ranch on the semantic web.

Google Ads

Ads are included at the discretion of users; they aren't placed there by Centiare. Snerfling 17:59, 2 February 2007 (PST)

I still think the ads look cheap. Maybe look into embedding them into the wiki deeper so they feel natural; like they've always been there.

Maybe so - ultimately, it's the users' choice. If it looks cheap, then perhaps their commercial efforts will be impacted.

Winners

• (Again no offense) The internet is littered with the bodies of dead or mentally retarded wikis. The winner (only wikipedia so far) and losers are seperated by a very fine line. Centaire is at a point were it will either exponentially increase or falter and become a blip on archive.org. I don't want to see blipage.

Neither do we.

Operating Margins

• On to the fun stuff - Hard hitting financial questions (not to pry, just help) - Is this for-profit or non-profit? With the ads I'm assuming for profit. Servers are expensive. Hell, one image server can be 20K. Do you have venture capital supporting you? Angel investor or firm? When cash flow dries up everything dries up. At this stage centiare is still so small the servers are probably not too much of a problem but expand a few terabytes and its a different story.

Actually, bandwidth & servers are incredibly inexpensive. There's a reason the Foundation is running 50% margins.

Really, I underestimated Sun micro, oracle, the dell/hp/etcs, and Al Gore's ability to make the internet so affordable.

When non-profits make money, it's called change in net assets. (See for yourself.) So, young grasshopper, let this lesson not be lost on you as you embark upon your business career.

Centiare

To conclude. I envision a facebook, wikipedia, business profile hybrid becoming a dominant force of the internet. Dominant = putting the kids through college, and of course a porsche 911 turbo with chrono package. I am an experienced wiki editor with 4 investment experience ranging from unit investment trusts to exchange traded funds (and an IQ of 139). Getting in on the ground floor of something big would be beneficial for my dream of a house in the hills and a trophy wife. I'm here to help. Garrett 15:44, 1 February 2007 (PST)

Let's talk. Snerfling 18:25, 1 February 2007 (PST)

Let's Garrett 17:33, 2 February 2007 (PST)

Either Greg or I will drop you a line Snerfling 17:59, 2 February 2007 (PST)

Fostering faster growth

Wikis are a very hot topic in the relatively small world of technologists. The vast majority of small orgnaizations and businesses simply don't have the technical expertise to create a wiki entry, much less take advantage of semantic tagging.

Want to grow faster? Make a dead-simple, fill-in-the-blanks FORM that can be used to generate a page here.

The form could even support for basic semantic relationships.

For example, if I use the form to build a page for a local organization, by simply checking a box I should be able to say "include a link on my page that my MEMBERS can click to build their own pages, and then automatically tag those pages as members of my organization."

In other words, make it EASY to grow virally. Right now your viral growth is limited; too many people and groups are "immune" because they don't have the right techy-gene.

Wygk 11:59, 5 March 2007 (PST)

I like your ideas. What type of improvements would you include/modify on these existing forms? Snerfling 12:21, 5 March 2007 (PST)

I will bet 10 to 1 that what Wygk was envisioning is something like what they have over at Wikicompany.org. Our "forms" aren't really forms, they are templates. --MyWikiBiz 13:59, 5 March 2007 (PST)

What an ugly site, Centiare has next to no competition because - drum roll - Aesthetics are everything. Look at presidential elections. The taller, better looking candidate wins almost everytime. Garrett 14:19, 5 March 2007 (PST)

I clicked around on wikicompany for five minutes and it seems 99% of all companies were made by this "walden" guy not the actual firms. I think we need to extend the olive branch and nicely tell him his unprofessional looking site is futile and centiare is the way to go. Garrett 14:28, 5 March 2007 (PST)

Garrett, you know what they say about great minds thinking alike :-/ WikiCompany is poorly organized - the choice of data elements is quite removed from basic hard-copy directories. If you want to approach him, be my guest.

Now, while we're quite accomplished at criticizing other sites, what about Centiare? What is lacking that is preventing rapid growth? Is it technical? We have every feature/function as Wikipedia + enhancements. Is it marketing ie just brute force market awareness? Or is it something else more intangible? What are your suggestions? Snerfling 16:37, 5 March 2007 (PST)

Current Events

I just had an idea that might bring us a good share of traffic, if we had any assurance that Google is spidering the site on a frequent enough basis (or we ping Google manually). What if we tried to pick out some "hot" news stories that are brewing in the Wikipedia, Slashdot, and Digg communities, then write an informative article about the subject, while people are in heavy "search mode" for more information? For example, this whole "Ryan Jordan / Essjay" fiasco at Wikipedia unraveled over the course of about 7 days. How many people during that time were searching for "Ryan Jordan Wikipedia" or "Essjay Wikipedia" during that time? Think if we had an article about it on Centiare, as the story was brewing, we would have gotten a lot of hits? I think so. Next story that I see unfolding on an "obscure" topic that has the potential to "explode", I'll give it a shot. Can't hurt. --MyWikiBiz 21:23, 5 March 2007 (PST)

Greg, that's a great idea. I had considered something very similar related to tracking Yahoo's listing of most popular search terms. It would also work well in conjunction with Google's most expensive search terms. The end result would be to link these to directory listings + adsense ads, so they might be perfect for Garrett.

It sounds like your's would be linked to main space articles. If the news/current events were related to entities/persons, we could also create directory listings (stubs) in which to run aficionados tags. Snerfling 07:46, 6 March 2007 (PST)

Could there be a new type of listing like a "News:Walter Reed Fiasco" or "News:Essjay" with semtags for all the key players? For news stories would only one person be able to edit and monetize or would it be a main space thing with aficionados? Garrett 15:00, 6 March 2007 (PST)

News items should be placed within the Main space with aficionados links back to Directory listings where Adense ads, etc. can be placed. Recall that we allow non-owners to create/control directory listings until the proper owners show up.

IOW, you could create a directory listing for WR Hospital and/or Essjay, and link that back from a main space entry (ie the news would have to be an "interest" of the listee). Even better, you could research Google for the most expensive ads, note who was paying for them, create Main space entries covering those topics, and then create directory listing for the payees along with your own Adsense ads, etc. Ditto for Yahoo current events search terms ("Buzz"). Snerfling 15:26, 6 March 2007 (PST)

I just think we're going to have to be really smart and really quick to catch something BEFORE it hits the Yahoo Buzz charts. Because no matter how great a page on Anna Nicole Smith we make, it's not likely to get in the Top 10 on Google in the same week. But, if we could nab a meme like Essjay or Antonella Barba at the point where they are just ramping up? That would be the ticket. --MyWikiBiz 19:54, 6 March 2007 (PST)

Buzz is probably a little too ambitious right now. It works for WP since they're ranked almost #1 on every search, regardless of topic. Your observation about plotting what will hit big is better suited to where we're at right now. Snerfling 21:10, 6 March 2007 (PST)

Build it and they will come.

I agree with the proceeding contributions that viral marketing will drive Centiare growth and build an internet powerhouse. Part of what I would like to see Centiare become is something that WP cannot: an online community of clients/members for commercial and advocacy organisations... the author ownership of the Centiare directory page linked to MySpace-type comments/YouTube videos/Blogs could create powerful online communities. I am planning to work in new media (online delivery of news commentary via blogs and video) and believe that Centiare could be the Unified Field Theory of wiki directories, blogs, and video. Nonetheless, what I intend to do in the mean time, is get every line of business in my family company to get a directory and write an article on every issue I have expertise in. We need to build content so that when people discover Centiare, they aren't disappointed with a lack of content. I like the idea of news items to drive traffic; could Centiare expand into the same area as Topix or Newsvine? Bnagroup 16:25, 8 March 2007 (PST)

Centiare supports all sorts of embedded scripts, including Iframe, which means we can run almost any program from within Centiare. The person who's the real expert in this area is OmniMediaGroup - take a look here to see just one example out of hundreds(?) she's created.

I have discussed with her the possibility of linking up blogs, auctions (eBay), classified (Craigslist), videos (YouTube), etc. to create a true Web3.0 e-commerce environment at Centiare. Perhaps you would like to touch base with her - the three of us (+ whoever else was interested) could probably pull this project together pretty quickly.

Btw, it needs to be said, so I guess here's as good as anyplace: collectivist systems like Wikipedia have always failed wherever & whenever they've been tried because they subsume self-interest to the "common good". In comparison, free markets have always succeeded wherever & whenever they've been tried because they elevate self-interest over the "common good".

The grand irony is that, even though capitalism is inherently selfish, due to productive efficiencies stimulated by self-interest, private property systems always generate more wealth, taxes & public funding. In a Web 3.0 environment, the seemingly novel construct of allowing users to control their own contributions will produce more and better quality information. That is, Centiare will deliver more utility and value to end users. Snerfling 17:16, 8 March 2007 (PST)

I think that is the huge potential of Centiare: the power to unify these extensions; if the owner of a directory page can protect that page from vandalism, it can be used to tie together these web extensions and create a dynamic web-based community. If someone doesn't like the APOV let them set up an counterpoint directory listing--instead of the Wikipedia suppression of dissent. On a side note, as an alumnus of Adam Smith's alma mater, I wouldn't say that Capitalism is inherently "selfish" but is inherently "self-motivated'. I know I am parsing words but selfishness is a sin, Capitalism is not. Capitalism is morally superior to collectivism. But you are right: the paradox is that the common good is better served by the freedom of individuals to achieve their goals. Bnagroup 18:39, 8 March 2007 (PST)

The Directory space, by default, cannot be accessed by any other users except page owners/originators & sysops. Since it is in effect, virtual "private property", owners can utilize their Directory listings/space to engage in all manner of legal activities, including advocacy, e-commerce, etc.

The only alternative a competitor or someone with an opposing viewpoint has is to establish a countervailing listing. Main space is reserved for NPOV, which means articles can only state the most fundamental information. Aficionados is the mechanism whereby users can provide links to their listings/contributions for further reading.

Allowing readers to decide within a marketplace of ideas is fundamentally sound and greatly preferable to the mayhem that ensues at WP. It's amazing watching everything Hayek, Orwell & Rand predict come true. Snerfling 06:22, 9 March 2007 (PST)

Revamp the tutorial

I downloaded an extension called "faststone" which makes taking pictures of your computer screen really easy. I think the tutorial page would be alot more helpful to new users (the 1%) if every step had a captured image to explain exactly what we mean. Garrett 12:40, 24 April 2007 (PDT)

An example

I'll see your screen capture, and raise you one live video capture. After seeing some stock analyst post technical chart analysis in "video narrated" form on his blog, I knew that's what I have to do, to make Centiare come alive for the inexperienced. I'll be working on this. --MyWikiBiz 22:32, 24 April 2007 (PDT)